Interview with Israel
Shamir
Kim Petersen
http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m22995
May 1, 2006
Israel Shamir is a prominent
and controversial Russian-Israeli thinker, writer, and
translator who lives in Jaffa. Shamir brings to his
political writing a refreshing candor, sharp insight, and
inspiring humanity. His principled stand supporting the
Palestinian refugees’ right of return and the rebuilding of
their destroyed villages led to his firing from the
“progressive” Israeli newspaper Haaretz. Following
Israeli attacks on Palestinians in January 2001, Shamir
became dedicated to political writings in English.
For the intellectual
Karl Marx, the Jewish question was an
“unreal subject.” Marx was
baptized a Lutheran and married to a gentile.
Shamir has renounced
Judaism and embraced Christianity.
He is a strong
proponent of the “One Man, One Vote, One State” solution for
a united Israel-Palestine.
I interviewed the
unflinching maverick writer Israel Shamir.
Kim Petersen: You wrote recently that the
historian David Irving, who the corporate media reports as
being sentenced for holocaust denial, was sentenced for
denial of “Jewish superiority.” Could you elaborate on this
and what holocaust denial means for you?
Israel Shamir: I wrote about it, in “For
Whom The Bell Tolls,” and in the “Vampire
Killers,” at length. No free man can agree with the
proposition that Jewish death (and life) is more important
than that of a goy. But the ban of Holocaust revisionism is
the only legally enforced prohibition in our society. The
Armenians were envious of this elevated status of Jews, and
actually succeeded to protect their tragedy of 1915 by a
similar law in France. The result was tragicomic. They
brought an important Jewish historian (and warmonger of
first degree) Bernard Lewis to the court of Paris, and he
was found guilty of denying their tragedy, just like David
Irving. But David Irving has got three years in jail, and
now his name is always preceded with the title “discredited”
(see an interview with him in the Observer), while
Bernard Lewis was fined one franc and he still appears
everywhere, and his name graces various petitions. He was
not discredited, but the Armenians were. Apparently, Jewish
blood is redder than Armenian, not to mention lesser
species. I quoted an article by a Jewish American historian
denying the genocide of the native Americans. He was not
discredited, either. The scourge of Irving, Debora Lipstadt,
denied the fiery holocaust of Dresden, and was not
discredited, either. Face it, Kim: the very concept of H is
a concept of Jewish superiority.
This has an important
religious meaning: Christianity is the denial of Jewish
superiority. Whoever believes or accepts Jewish superiority,
denies Christ for He made us equal. The French Jewish
filmmaker Claude Lanzman, the creator of “Shoah,” said: if
you believe in holocaust, you can’t believe in Christ. I am
ready to take his challenge: I believe in Christ. We can
rephrase the words of Lanzman: belief in a special
historical meaning of death of Jews is a sign of apostasy.
Indeed, the creed of holocaust competes with the Church: we
believe that Christ suffered for us and came back to life.
The H believers believe that the Jewish people suffered and
came back by creating the Jewish state. In this competition,
the Jews win: as opposed to H, you can deny Crucifixion and
Resurrection and your career won’t suffer a bit.
Thus the question of H
denial is the question of apostasy: will our society stand
on the rock planted by Christ, or will it worship the Jewish
state. This is an important discovery of eternal religiosity
of human spirit: the attempt to create a secular society did
not work out. After an illusionary short break, the gods
came back.
KP:
Is it appropriate to use such loaded terms as "goy"?
IS: Well, I am not aware this is a
loaded term. I translated some Hebrew books, from Samuel
Yosef Agnon, the only Hebrew Nobel Prize winner, to the Book
of Lineage by Rabbi Zacuto, a 15th century Judaeo-Iberian
sage, my most recent translation into English. They all used
“goy” and so do Israeli newspapers. The word "goy" has a
meaning: this is a non-Jew as seen by Jews. If you think it
is not a complimentary term, you mean that in your view Jews
look with distaste at a goy. Maybe. But we should deal with
problems, not with words. Dealing with words is easier, but
brings no relief. If we were to use 'gentile', would it
change the Jewish attitude to one? This is also a sign of
weakness. When (in 19th century) Jews felt weak, they liked
to be called Israelites, or Hebrews. Now they do not mind
being called "Jews."
KP: You have described the US as a
“greater Jewish state.” You laud Jeffrey Blankfort as having
taken “an important next step” in
rejecting the views of Noam Chomsky and others. Is the
influence of the “Jewish lobby” preponderant over US
corporate imperialism?
IS: I wrote about it in “A
Yiddishe Medina.” The US corporate imperialism is not a
bodiless spirit; it is the sum of desires and actions by the
US elites. And the US elites are Jewish, to great extent,
and they have accepted Jewish values and ideas, to even
greater extent. A few years ago, an American Jewish writer
Philip Weiss wrote in the New York Observer: “I don’t claim to know how Jewish
the membership of the establishment is. Twenty percent, 50
percent? I’m guessing 30.” Jews compose at least 30% of
Harvard students, reported
The Forward,
a Jewish American newspaper. The Hillel Society gives such
numbers: Total Undergraduate Population: 6658; Jewish
Undergraduate Population: 2000 (approx.); Total Graduate
Population: 10351 Jewish Graduate Population: 2500
(approx.). Thus the US elites are Jewish to a great extent,
in the ordinary meaning of the word. As for spirit, Karl
Marx spoke of “Jewish spirit” of the Yankees. A less known
Marxist,
Sombart, wrote about it at length. Thus in my view it is
a mistake to speak of “Jewish Lobby” -- we may refer to a
takeover, a displacement of the old WASP elites. The Jews
constitute some three percent of the US population. The
Brits took over India with much less percentage; so did the
ruling minority in Syria. Normans ruled over Britain for
centuries with less than that. All Russian nobility in the
Tsar’s days was 2-3% of the population, while upper castes
of Hindu societies constitute some 5% at most. Now, the Jews
are well integrated in the “US corporate imperialism” on
many levels, and they do not have to fight it, they use it.
The Jewish Lobby is an additional mechanism, consisting of
hard-core Jewish nationalists. The problem is that the rest,
the non-Jewish-Lobby part of the US establishment consists,
as I have said, of not-so-nationalistic Jews to great
extent. They reach compromise, and this compromise is the
middle ground of mild-Jewish-nationalism.
KP: On the invasion of Iraq, you
stated: “Too many coincidences for a purely American war.”
To what extent do you see a Zionist hand behind the attack
and occupation?
IS: Yes, I partly agree with the
Chicago-Harvard duo, the conquest of Iraq and present threat
to Iran are caused by the Zionist affiliates within the
Administration. The old canard of Oil Interests was debunked
by reality: oil costs more, oil companies leave Iraq, none
of their executives supported the war. Probably your readers
do not even think of Iraqi WMD or the silly stuff of
“bringing democracy” to the Arabs. Thus the Zionist plot is
the first and obvious explanation.
But the Iraqi war, as a
part of War on Terror, has a second leg: this is an even
more scary totalitarianism, the drive to create a
caste-based oligarchy of the Iron Heel, in Jack London’s
terms. Fear is its important tool; dismantling of civil
freedoms and of cohesive natural society is the first goal.
Without War on Terror, the US rulers wouldn’t be able to
read our emails, listen to our conversations, store in their
data banks every bit of information about our lives. This
totalitarianism was predicted by George Orwell, an avid
reader of the Protocols, and it was lauded by Leo Strauss, a
guiding light of Neo-Cons. Strauss endorsed a society with
dictatorial powers of elites; a follower of Hobbes, he
distrusted the people. Though his views were formed before
the WWII, after the war he frequently referred to the
Holocaust as a phenomenon that is liable to come back unless
the society is firmly kept in check. I called the supporters
of this paradigm by the name “Mammonites,”
mammon-worshippers. The Iraqi war, and the War on Terror in
general, is a joint product of Zionists and Mammonites,
while these two groups often coincide, as is the case with
the leading Neo-Cons.
That is why our
struggle is with Zionists and Mammonites; this is not only a
laudable campaign of support of the peoples of the Middle
East, but first of all the decisive battle for preservation
of democracy and freedom in the US and Europe, for a chance
of better life for our children, for creation of a more
egalitarian and more spiritual society, against the Dark
ages were are being led to.
KP: Iranian president Mahmoud
Ahmadinejad has taken a lot of flak from the western media
for citing the late Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini about wiping
Israel off the map. Apparently, judging by the western
media’s silence, it was okay to wipe Palestine off the map
though. Is the state of Israel a legitimate entity?
IS: No, it is not. We can’t consider
legitimate a state that gives no rights to its inhabitants
and officially belongs to World Jewry. It is in our
interests to achieve full independence from the Jews, and to
shift the whole lot of rights and responsibilities to the
population of the country. The sovereignty should be ours,
of the people of Palestine/Israel, not of the Jewish People,
the extra-territorial worldwide body. I call upon my
country-fellows to give up their “Jewishness” and to become
adoptive Palestinians, brothers and sisters to the native
folk. I hope eventually it will happen; we shall integrate
and forget the overseas connection. Meanwhile we follow the
colonial paradigm and exclude the natives in the name of
“Jewishness.” We should follow the example of Mexico, where
immigrants from Spain and Italy form one nation with the
descendents of Montezuma.
KP: What does the election of Hamas
mean for you? Should Hamas recognize the state of Israel?
IS: I wrote
about the results. The Palestinians rejected the Fatah
rule because they made too many concessions to Israel, and
received nothing in return. Hamas should not recognise the
state of Israel, at least until the Israeli rulers recognise
the Palestinian independence, remove their armed forces and
stop to interfere with the free traffic of Palestinians
within and without Palestine. This is reciprocity. I can
imagine an even better solution: Hamas may call for full
integration of all Palestine from the River to the Sea, and
for general elections on the basis of One Person-One Vote.
But until it happens, Hamas should be guided by reciprocity
principle: mutual recognition, inter alia.
KP: You are an ex-Jew, a convert to
Christianity -- why is this? You have written of “many
ex-Jews.” Is this for the same reason as you? Do you think a
growing trend in Jewish apostasy would be effective in
bringing about justice for Palestinians?
IS: Christianity and Judaism are
strongly connected religions. A Christian, Karl Marx said:
Christianity is sublime Judaism, while Judaism is sordid
Christianity. A real Christian knows that a goy is not worse
than a Jew; so the idea of Jewish exclusivity is not
acceptable to a Christian. In our country we have many
Russian Orthodox Christians (some of Jewish origin, and some
not), and they pray and celebrate holidays together with our
Palestinian Orthodox Christian brothers and sisters. I was
baptised by the Palestinian priest, Archbishop Theodosius
Attalla Hanna, and it helped me to sort out the question of
identity. The important point is not to create a separate
Jewish “Christian” set-up, for such an arrangement defeats
its purpose. Thus I am worried that there are “Jewish
Christian” churches that are devoutly Zionist. In short,
yes, baptism is a solution, but only in connection with
rejection of Jewishness. If it is done as an addition to
Jewishness, it is void, and brings no benefit.
Kim Petersen, Co-Editor of Dissident Voice,
lives in the traditional Mi'kmaq homeland colonially
designated Nova Scotia, Canada. He can be reached at:
kim@dissidentvoice.org.
Israel Shamir writings can be read at his
website.
His essays are collected in three books,
The Flowers of Galilee,
Our Lady of Sorrow, and the
Pardes.
::
Article nr. 22995 sent on 02-may-2006 02:56 ECT
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