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Our friend the Australian editor Peter Myers had carried out
a recent debate on the origins of the Protocols of Zion. In my view, the
Protocols is a multifaceted and multilayered composition being re-written a few
times by various persons, sympathetic and hostile. Its contents provide a
valuable key to understanding the modern paradigm, but its origin is
untraceable. That is why I refrained from dealing with the origins. However,
Peter Myers writes: In major US and Israeli media, propagandists for Israel
have likened Jimmy Carter’s book Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid to the
Protocols of Zion. The argument that the Protocols is a forgery is thus used
as a shield to fend off all scholarly argument that the Israel lobby dominates
United States foreign policy on the Middle East. Thus, an investigation of
whether the Protocols has been proved a forgery is pivotal to the defence of
Carter, Finkelstein, and Mearsheimer/Walt.
Read his analysis:
Debate of Peter Myers with John Birdman Bryant
on the Protocols of Zion
(1) From: John Bryant
Dear Mr Myers:
A friend recommended that I look at your Protocols writing.
My personal prejudice -- or, rather, POST-judice -- is that the Protocols is
largely the same as the Dialogue, and hence a 'forgery' -- I say 'post-judice'
because I had my wife, who majored in French in college, compare the Protocols
with the Dialogue, and it was her conclusion that they were very similar.
(2) Reply to John Birdman Bryant - Peter Myers, July 6, 2008
Dear Birdman,
Thanks for your correspondence.
The claim that the Protocols is a forgery is mainly based on
parallel passages with Maurice Joly's book Dialogue aux Enfers entre Montesquieu
at Machiavel (“Dialogues in Hell”), published in 1864.
When I first read Joly five years ago, my first impression
was, like your wife’s, that the Protocols was plagiarised from it.
Herman Bernstein, whose edition of Joly I was reading, has a
chapter displaying all the parallel passages side by side. I put the whole text
of Joly’s “Dialogues in Hell” on my website, some years ago,
here.
All the parallel passages are set side by side
here.
If there is a conspiracy for One World Government, then for
co-ordination purposes it would have to be written down at times, and then some
persons would have written accounts of it.
The other explanation, from the forgery one, is that Joly
himself may have copied from its text for his book; and that the author of the
Protocols also used it, but varying the meaning.
The Protocols, on its own, cannot be used to establish that
there is a world conspiracy. But if such a conspiracy be verified FROM OTHER
SOURCES - such as H. G. Wells' book
The Open Conspiracy and Benjamin Ginsberg's
admissions and the 1946
Baruch Plan for World Government: then the Protocols can be re-examined in
that light, and compared against the historical record.
That is the only way to evaluate it.
The Protocols predicts that, after a world war, there will be
an attempt to form a world government, secretly orchestrated by Jewish
financiers.
This happened at the
Treaty of Versailles.
The Protocols also predicted a despotic government in the
guise of socialism, once again secretly Jewish. This happened when
Lenin & Trotsky set up the USSR:
For all the Czar's toughness, his regime was more lenient
than Lenin's; when the Bolsheviks came to power they were much more inclined to
execute serious opponents.
When Lenin died, power passed to a triumvirate - Zinoviev,
Kamenev, and Stalin - of which Stalin was the only non-Jew.
Zinoviev and Kamenev feared Trotsky, and allied against him;
Stalin was the third and least important member of the triumvirate.
But later, Stalin got sole power, and overthrew the Jewish
leadership. Zinoviev and Kamenev joined Trotsky’s Opposition grouping, but too
late. All three were executed (Trotsky when in Mexico).
Solzhenitsyn also
depicted Jewish control at first, but their overthrow under Stalin.
The techniques of thought control espoused in the Protocols
are as sinister as those depicted by George Orwell in 1984. Many people feel
that we are approaching this condition today. It is reasonable to consider
whether there might be any connection.
The Protocols could also be relevant in understanding the
crisis in the Middle East and exploring possible solutions to it which might
avert world war; wars in that area drag the great powers in.
Consider these four Indicators:
i. A major political event occurs in world history,
inaugurating a regime (the USSR) aiming to engulf the world, carried out by
organised Jews as documented by Bertrand Russell, and by Robert Wilton and
others. Even though some Jews opposed the new regime, that does not undo the
fact that it was created by Jews.
ii. The Jewish role is hidden, denied, kept invisible. Many
of the Jewish participants came from the West - therefore, some Western Jewish
groups knew of the Jewish role, yet kept it hidden from non-Jews (e.g. in the
public media, partly owned by Jews). There have also been dissident Jewish
groups which tried to warn of what was happening.
iii. Non-Jewish supporters of the Socialist movement are led
to believe that the new regime is benevolent, and the inauguration of a utopia.
iv. In fact it is a despotic dystopia for the very people
among whom it is carried out. Non-Jewish Socialists are deceived and
manipulated.
Now this pattern of events was predicted in The Protocols of
Zion; yet no other type of literature, e.g. the Socialist literature preceding
the event, correctly predicted this conjunction of events.
It is this kind of "coincidence" that keeps the Protocols
relevant. Is there any other literature that made such a prediction?
If you know of other literature that correctly predicted this
conjunction of events, please let me know.
(3) From Birdman:
this essay was triggered by the reactions to my posting of
the late Dr Gordon Stein's essay on the Protocols, found
here
Some Common Sense About the Protocols
In 1903 a book was published in Russia which is now known as
The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion, or just The Protocols. It purports
to be the Jewish master plan for takeover of the world, and a great many people
in the present day believe that is exactly what it is. The Protocols achieved
serious attention the Western world in 1921, when reviews of it supposedly
proving that it was a 'forgery' appeared in the British press. In spite of these
and many subsequent denunciations, this book has become one of the most
widely-read books in the world. Henry Ford, the legendary auto manufacturer who
became convinced of a Jewish world conspiracy by talking with influential Jews
who were passengers on the 'peace ship' which he had chartered in order to help
end WW1, remarked that he knew not whether the Protocols was a forgery; he knew
only that it had described the world situation accurately since the time it had
been published.
Critics of The Protocols in the present day usually claim
that it is a 'forgery', or more precisely, a book which has been plagiarized
from a much earlier book by Maurice Joly entitled Dialogue in Hell between
Machiavelli and Montesquieu ('The Dialogue'). My own view is that, while I
believe that the Jewish establishment is indeed following a master plan to take
over the world, and while that master plan may have many points in common with
The Protocols, I believe that The Protocols did not originate as such a plan,
and that it constitutes what I call an 'MLK plagiarism' of Joly's book, ie,
compilation of plagiarized parts, sometimes modified, combined with some
original material, much like MLK's doctoral thesis and many other things MLK
supposedly authored. I offer this public expression of my views for the simple
reason that I believe it is a serious mistake, both moral and tactical, to
accuse the Jews falsely, inasmuch as there are many high crimes and low
misdemeanors which may be laid at the Jewish doorstep, but to make a false
allegation is to throw the true and valid charges into question, since a false
charge among the true will invite rejection of both true and false charges
because the true charges are tainted by the false one according to the ancient
criterion, "False in one thing; false in all. In this sense, then, the promotion
of The Protocols -- along with an equally strong demonstration of their falsity
-- in fact gives aid and comfort to the Jewish conspirators, because it
effectively paints the stupid goy believers as idiots and ignorants.
So why, then, do I think the Protocols are a 'forgery'? To
explain, I begin by noting that The Dialogue, published in 1864, was in fact a
critique of the regime of Napoleon III. Next, I assert that the Protocols was a
plagiarism of the Dialogue, a book published almost 40 years earlier. I say
this, not merely on the basis that other critics of the Protocols have asserted
the same, but also -- and most importantly -- on the basis that my wife, a
4-year full-academic-scholarship French major and Phi Beta Kappa graduate,
compared the Joly text with that of the Protocols and concluded that the
Protocols was a plagiarism of Joly. With these points in mind, then, we see that
if the Protocols were lifted from a book which was intended as a criticism of
Emperor Napoleon III in the 1860s, as in fact it was, then it is absurd to think
it is a 'Jewish master plan'. That is, if the Protocols was really a
pre-existing Jewish master plan, then why was it turned into a critique of
Napoleon III? This is something akin to taking a physics book and plagiarizing
it to create an exercise manual -- it just makes no sense. To the contrary, the
simplest explanation of the correspondence between the Dialogue and the
Protocols is plagiarism, and under the criterion of Occam's Razor, or the Law of
Parsimony, this explanation must be accepted unless there is additional data
which does not fit this explanation.
The logic of the above argument must evidently stand or fall
on whether one reckons that the Protocols was in fact plagiarized from the
Dialogue. To some extent this is a matter of judgment, and the argument will
probably go on for some time -- mostly, of course, among those who do not speak
both French and English -- until the Jews decide that the controversy has served
their purpose sufficiently, and that therefore any remaining copies of Dialogue
and the Protocols shall be burned in the public square by the hangman.
APPENDIX: Statements of Protocols supporters and Birdman
responses
HENRY MAKOW, in his article PROTOCOLS FORGERY ARGUMENT IS
FLAWED (on the Net) says the following:
In my opinion, the outlawing of Protocols on pain of death in
Bolshevik Russia and its execration in the West today proves its authenticity.
Birdman response: It proves no such thing. It merely shows
that the mostly-Jewish Bolsheviks and the Western Jewsmedia didn't want
criticism of Jews popping up anywhere.
VOLTAIRE/Bill the Hermit describes the above article as a
'point by point' refutation by Henry Makow that Joly and the Protocols
substantially differ in tone and content.
Birdman comment: They do differ -- the Protocols is a
scaled-down version of the Dialogue, reduced in size by about 50%. And we will
grant that there are differences in tone and content. But that doesn't change
any arguments we have made in this essay.
PETER MYERS thinks the Protocols are genuine, as I understand
it, and has posted several items on this subject.
(4) REPLY by Peter Myers
Dear Birdman,
In major US and Israeli media, propagandists for Israel have
likened Jimmy Carter’s book Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid to
Mein Kampf (Jimmy Carter's Kampf) and the
Protocols of Zion (The Protocols of the Elder Carter). These propagandists
insist that if there is ANY Jewish conspiracy, then it is the same Jewish
conspiracy the Protocols describes.
But the Protocols is a forgery. Therefore, all these other
books are also wrong.
The argument that the Protocols is a forgery is thus used as
a shield to fend off all scholarly argument that the Israel lobby dominates
United States foreign policy on the Middle East.
Thus, an investigation of whether the Protocols has been
proved a forgery is pivotal to the defence of Carter, Finkelstein, and
Mearsheimer/Walt.
Israel Zangwill, Herman Bernstein, and Norman Cohn (Jewish
authors regarded as the authorities on the Protocols) argue that the Protocols
was copied in the main from Maurice Joly’s book Dialogues in Hell Between
Machiavelli and Montesquieu, published in 1864.
To counter the propagandists, it is not necessary to prove
the Protocols genuine. It is only necessary to show that the above authorities
have not considered certain important issues in their proof of forgery.
The propagandists insist that the case is closed; all we need
to do is show that the issue is still open.
I put the whole text of Joly’s “Dialogues in Hell” on my
website
here
I put the Protocols
here.
All the parallel passages are set side by side at
http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/bernstein.zip
The last link above includes Bernstein’s analysis.
Zangwill’s material is at
http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/zangwill.html
And Cohn’s material is at
http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/cohn.html
Presenting the arguments of Zangwill, Bernstein & Cohn in
their own words, I am the only author of a study of the Protocols who presents
both sides.
I was the first person to show that the parallel passages in
Joly's Dialogues comprise 16.45% of the Protocols, by word-count. This is
substantial, but still less than one sixth of the total. What Cohn especially
omits to mention, is the Protocols' extensive coverage of the world finance
system, unmatched in the Dialogues.
Even the parallel passages, however, are not the same: the
meaning is often quite different, despite the similarity. I give details below.
My argument is that Joly did not create these parallel
passages ex nihilo, but modified an existing revolutionary text (precursor of
the Protocols), reworking parts of it to suit his attack on Napoleon III.
Differences between the Dialogues & the Protocols
1 Who are the Machiavellians?
In Joly, the conspirator is the monarch; in the Protocols,
the conspirators are those trying to overthrow him.
In the Dialogues, Napoleon III is the Machiavellian,
preventing the people, led by the Revolutionaries of 1848, from installing a
People's Democracy along the lines of the French Revolution.
In the Protocols, the shadowy leaders lurking behind the
Revolutionaries are the Machiavellians. They are tricking the people into
trusting their leadership, but when in power they will institute the Red Terror.
In the Dialogues, Napoleon (the Machiavellian) is resisting
the Revolutionaries; in the Protocols, the Machiavellians are sponsoring these
Marxists, anarchists, and utopian activists.
2 Joly is written "after the event", i.e. to satirise
Napoleon's existing regime; the Protocols is written "in advance", anticipating
a regime yet to come.
3 Joly's despot is one man; the Protocols' conspiracy has
many participants.
4 Joly's despotism is localised to one country and one time;
the Protocols' despotism extends widely, over many countries, regimes and
decades.
5 The Protocols' conspirators envisages themselves running a
World Government, and instituting a new type of regime, unknown to past history.
Compare this with Trotsky on World Federation:
'We are of course talking about a European socialist
federation as a component of a future world federation ... ' (Dmitri Volkogonov,
Trotsky: The Eternal Revolutionary, tr. & ed. Harold Shukman,
HarperCollinsPublishers, London 1996, p. 209).
6 Joly's despotism is achieved without violence: "violence
plays no role" (p. 174); "I who have taken as final policy, not violence, but
self-effacement" (p. 226); at p. 236 the despot says "sometimes of duplicity,
sometimes of violence", but Napoleon III had no concentration camps or gulag, no
death squads, no mass graves of victims executed by a bullet to the back of the
head, no glorifying of violence.
By comparison, Protocol 1 says that the best results are
obtained by violence & terrorization; also, "we must keep to the program of
violence and make-believe"; Protocol 3 advocates "the violence of a bold
despotism".
This is much closer to Trotsky's violence of the Kronstadt
massacre, and his orders to use relatives as hostages, with the threat of
executing them:
http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/worst.html.
7 Napoleon (Joly's despot) is for religion; whereas the
Protocols says its conspirators are against religion.
8 Timing & Future-orientation (Teleology)
Cohn admits that the Protocols were ignored until World War I
and the Bolshevik Revolution, 20 or so years after it was written.
Cohn wrote in Warrant For Genocide: The Myth of the Jewish
World Conspiracy and the Protocols of the Elders of Zion (Pelican,
Harmondsworth, 1970):
“The myth of the Jewish world-conspiracy would have remained
the monopoly of right-wing Russians and a few cranks in western Europe, and the
Protocols would never have emerged from obscurity at all, if it had not been for
the First World War and the Russian Revolution and their aftermath.” (pp. 14-15)
“The success of the Protocols before the war was in fact
limited. Zhevakhov tells how in 1913 Nilus complained to him: {quote} I cannot
get the public to treat the Protocols seriously, with the attention they
deserve. They are read, criticized, often ridiculed, but there are very few who
attach importance to them and see in them a real threat to Christianity, a
programme for the destruction of the Christian order and for the conquest of the
whole world by the Jews. That nobody believes ... {endquote}” (pp. 124-5)
More at
http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/cohn.html
If it were a forgery designed to stir up pogroms etc, one
would think that the forgers had failed, since it had no effect for 20 years.
Given that these alleged forgers had been stirring up pogroms
repeatedly, one would think that they would be better at it, than 20 years of
failure implies.
It was only when World War I (1914-8), the Bolshevik
Revolution (1917), the Balfour Declaration (1917) and the attempt to make the
League of Nations a World Government at the Peace Conference of Versailles
(1919) seemed to bear out predictions in the Protocols - predictions which are
not in Joly's Dialogues - that the Protocols was taken seriously.
The same people who deny Jewish control of the Bolshevik
Revolution (until Stalin stole their conspiracy), also deny the authenticity of
the Protocols. Therefore, demonstrating this Jewish control is the first step in
puncturing their argument:
http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/russell.html.
9 Finance
The "forgery" hypothesis says that the Okhrana plagiarised
the Dialogues of Maurice Joly. But the Protocols opposes the policy on
government debt endorsed in the Dialogues.
Joly's despot says, "I will borrow" the funds for government
expenditure (Dialogues, p. 209); borrow from the public (p. 215); but pay
reduced interest (p. 217).
He speaks of the benefits of government debt (p. 214):
http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/joly.zip.
The Protocols acknowledges that government debt is a trap;
that governments need not borrow the funds for their expenditure, but can create
the money by fiat, as the banks do (but for which the banks charge interest, in
effect a private tax). This was the way the finance system of the USSR operated.
Protocol 20 says: "with any form of taxation per head the
State is bailing out the last coppers of the poor taxpayers in order to settle
accounts with wealthy foreigners, from whom it has borrowed money instead of
collecting these coppers for its own needs without the additional interest".
In other words, the interest on foreign loans must be paid by
the taxpayers. Governments could avoid that interest burden by issuing the money
themselves; after all, the banks themselves create it ex nihilo.
The lesson is, that we need a finance system akin to the
Communist one.
Protocol 20 also says:
"The present issue of money in general does not correspond
with the requirements per head, and cannot therefore satisfy all the needs of
the workers. The issue of money ought to correspond with the growth of
population and thereby children also must absolutely be reckoned as consumers of
currency from the day of their birth."
This is the way a welfare system operates (child endowment,
pensions etc); i.e., the government issues money to parents for the care of
their children, either directly via "family allowance" payments, or via
additional wages or reduced taxes for workers with dependents. Yet it's unlikely
that in 1897 any state had this type of money-issue.
"... the gold standard has been the ruin of the States which
adopted it ... With us the standard that must be introduced is the cost of
working-man power, whether it be reckoned in paper or in wood. We shall make the
issue of money in accordance with the normal requirements of each subject,
adding to the quantity with every birth and subtracting with every death."
http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/protocol.html
This accurately describes the sort of finance system the USSR
had. I believe that, via such prescriptions, the Protocols contains not only the
key to what is wrong with our finance system, but also the way to fix it.
The conspirators did not want such a solution to be
implemented, until they controlled the state directly, not indirectly (through
other people).
At the time the Protocols was written, Russia was getting
deeply into foreign debt:
W. O. Henderson, The Industrialization of Europe 1870-1914
(Thames and Hudson, London 1969).
{p. 87} Foreigners also helped to build Russia's early
railway lines. Much of the capital of the Great Russia Railway Company of 1857
was raised abroad. Three French banks were particularly active in providing
money for the company and the necessary bridges, locomotives and rolling-stock
were largely supplied by French firms.
However, Russia's industrial progress in the 1890s was to a
great extent the achievement of Count Sergei Witte, Minister of Finance between
1892 and 1903. In the eleven years that he held office Witte pressed forward
energetically with his plans to speed up the pace of industrialization. Since he
considered the construction of a greatly improved railway system the key to
future economic progress, he had the railways of Russia nearly doubled in
length: Moscow was linked with the ports of Archangel and Riga and the textile
centre of Ivanovo-Vognesensk; St Petersburg gained direct access to the Ukraine,
while Kiev was joined to the Donetz valley, and Rostov, on the Don, was linked
with the oilfield of Baku. Witte's most spectacular railway was the
Trans-Siberian line, of which well over 3,000 miles had been completed by 1899.
Heavy government investment in railways fostered the expansion of the iron,
steel and engineering industries; there was great activity in the Krivoi-Rog
ironfield, the Donetz coal basin and the Baku oilfield; the industrial resources
of Siberia and Central Asia
{p. 88} began to be opened up, and even the remote Chinese
provinces of Manchuria and Korea were subject to Russian economic penetration.
To finance an enormous programme of public works Witte relied
heavily upon government borrowing from abroad and upon persuading foreign
capitalists to invest in Russian industrial enterprises. In answer to his
critics Witte insisted that in the past all underdeveloped countries had relied
upon borrowed money to assist in financing the early phase of industrialization.
But his financial policy undoubtedly placed heavy burdens upon the Russian
taxpayers and consumers. Witte's critics complained that prices were rising,
that grain was being exported even when there was a poor harvest and that
'Witte's system' could survive only so long as foreign - particularly French -
investors were prepared to go on buying Russian State bonds and shares in new
Russian joint-stock companies. They claimed that many of the new industries were
being run by foreign entrepreneurs for the benefit of foreign investors, and
that although some manufacturing regions (such as the Donetz valley) might
appear to be flourishing, older industrial areas (such as the Urals) were
declining. The critics also argued that if industry were to flourish there must
be a heavy home demand for consumer goods.
Towards the end of his term of office Witte began to realize
the need for overall State economic planning. With incomparable energy he
extended his influence over the activities of one branch of the civil service
after another. But in the Russia of his day he could never hope to gain decisive
control over all aspects of economic life. Moreover, he came to see that the
peasant problem lay at the root of Russia's difficulties in the 1890s. His
recommendations for dealing with it fell upon deaf ears, though they
foreshadowed the subsequent agrarian reforms of Stolypin. While Witte believed
that an autocratic form of government was essential for Russia, he realized that
Nicholas II lacked the understanding and will-power needed to carry out the
crucial reforms.
{endquote}
The Protocols was written around the same time as Witte was
finance minister.
If the Protocols was created by the Okhrana (Secret Police),
then this arm of government was warning of the danger of foreign debt, at the
same time as the finance branch of the Russian government was endorsing Russia's
getting deeply into that same foreign debt.
10 Cohn broadens the topic beyond the Protocols, to any
material on Jews behaving in a conspiratorial way
Cohn could have agreed, like Benjamin Ginsberg (above), that
Jews created the Bolshevik Revolution (not all Jews, but Jews), and that they
largely control the US media and government. He could have said, "yes, but", as
Israel Shahak does. That would have been an acceptable position.
Instead, Cohn broadens the topic beyond the Protocols of
Zion, to any material on Jews behaving in a conspiratorial way:
"Stalin in his last years produced a new version of the
conspiracy-myth, in which Jews figured as agents of an imperialist plot to
destroy the Soviet Union and assassinate its leaders; this was used to secure
the execution of Rudolf Slansky and his Jewish colleagues on the Central
Committee of the Czechoslovak Communist party in 1952, and it also formed the
basis for the story of the 'doctors' plot' in 1953." (Warrant For Genocide, p.
15).
Stalin was murdered soon after:
http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/death-of-stalin.html.
After Stalin, the contest between Zionists and anti-Zionists
continued in the USSR. A document called "The Catechism of the Jews in the
[former] Soviet Union", circulated in the last decades of the USSR, and was
published there in a newspaper in 1990. A copy is at
http://abbc.com/zionism/index.htm#catechi; another copy is at
http://www.sullybuttes.net/users/teacher/catechis.htm.
Cohn wrote,
"New forgeries were also produced to supplement the Protocols
and bring them up to date. The most celebrated of these was a document said to
have been found on a Jewish Bolshevik commander in the Red Army, of the name of
Zunder." (Warrant For Genocide, p. 130).
He rejects not only the Protocols, but any claim of Jews
acting in a conspiratorial way, treating this as tantamount to the Protocols.
In thus overstating his case, he makes refutation easier. It
can be refuted by any direct evidence, e.g. of Jewish domination of the US
media.
Can one disclose such information in public, without being
ignored, vilified, subjected to argumentum ad hominem? Then this also provides
evidence of who is in power: those you cannot criticize, are those in control.
Cohn's book, and books arguing a similar viewpoint, can be
sold in bookshops. Can one get a book arguing that the Protocols is genuine into
the bookshops? Why?
11. What Cohn implicitly rules out of the debate:
(a) He does not examine the Jewish domination in the early
USSR, except cursorily, or the association between Jews and Revolution admitted
by J. L. Talmon.
(b) Cohn does not examine Jewish promotion of World
Government at the Peace Conference of Versailles (1919), or in the Baruch Plan
for World Government (1946).
(c) He does not relate the Protocols' Jewish utopia to the
Balfour Declaration, (Britain's "contract with Jewry" in order to win the First
World War), or why the British Government might have thought that an alliance
with Zionists would get the US into the war.
(d) He does not relate the above points to the ideas and
sense of mission of the Jewish religion, i.e. to intention and program. This
omission is the more striking because Cohn has written (disparagingly) about
nearly every kind of modern millenialism except the Jewish kind.
(e) He does not relate the above points to the Jewish
tradition of Marranism. In particular, he does not relate Marranism to the
Letter of the Jews of Arles and the Reply of the Jews of Constantinople
(f) He does not examine the politics of France before, during
and after the reign of Napoleon III, against which Joly pitched his Dialogues
(g) He does not examine the parallels between Joly's
Dialogues and Jacob Venedey's earlier book Machiavel, Montesquieu, Rousseau
(h) He does not examine the praise of Machiavelli, and appeal
to Machiavelli, by Revolutionary writers and activists, such as Rousseau and
Babeuf
(i) After saying that the Tsar dismissed the Protocols as a
forgery, Cohn does not explain why the Tsarina had a copy of the Protocols with
them at the time of their death.
More at
http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/toolkit.html
and at at
http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/hiding.html
Peter
(5) Birdman: “You seem to think ... the Protocols is
necessary to proving a Jewish world conspiracy”
I am amazed at your logic. You seem to think that proving the
validity or truth of the Protocols is necessary to proving a Jewish world
conspiracy. But the truth is that the Protocols are not necessary, and in fact
are completely irrelevant. As proof, I offer my (inductive) argument of JWC
without the Protocols:
http://www.thebirdman.org/Index/Jews/Jews-LtrToIranPres-ThoroughSurveyOfJewishThreat.html
As to the argument 'The Protocols is false, therefore there
is no Jewish world conspiracy', I find this rather silly, tho, as PT Barnum
said, 'There's a sucker born every minute', and I suppose a few of those would
believe it.
(6) Reply (Peter M.):
But I don’t claim to prove the Protocols genuine; I present
evidence for its authenticity, but I don’t go the next step and make a dogmatic
statement that it IS genuine. However I do assert that the proofs of forgery are
not really proofs.
I offer plenty of other evidence of a Jewish conspiracy, or
rather two Jewish conspiratorial movements, Zionist and Communist, sometimes at
odds but often aligned, in conjunction with a British one:
http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/british-conspiracy.html
It’s the Zionists who make dogmatic statements about the
Protocols; they insist it’a forgery. And from that they go on to ridicule other
authors alleging Jewish domination of the US - Carter, Mearsheimer/Walt,
Finkelstein.
(7) Why didn’t the Czar use Protocols after failed Jewish
dominated revolution of 1905?
From: Bill <billhermit@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 12:13:57 -0400
Two points in particular impress me.
(1) The Jewish authors who deny the authenticity of the
"Protocols" simultaneously deny that Jews exercise any provable international
influence at all. That is provably not true, e.g. the bolshevik revolution, the
"minorities treaties" in Central Europe, the League of Nations, the mandate over
Palestine and the Balfour Declaration, etc.
(2) If the "Protocols were "forged" to target the Jews, then
the effort failed from 1901-1917. The Protocols were first published by Nilus in
book form in 1901. Why did the Czarist government not resort to them as a
propaganda weapon after the failed Jewish dominated revolution of 1905? That
would have been the ideal time.
(8) From: Kerry Bolton
The debate on the authenticity of The Protocols has so far
neglected to mention some salient facts.
1. Cohn et al do NOT mention that Joly was a protégé of
Cremieux, head not only of the Universal Israelite Alliance, but also of Mizraim
and Grand Orient Masonry, and a leading figure in the Gambetta regime. The
Gambetta regime was heavily influenced by Masons. Joly himself was a highly
regarded propagandist for the regime. Cremieux moreover was bitterly opposed to
Napoleon III, therefore the Dialogue of Joly would reflect that milieu.
2. Very close parallels exist between passages in The
Protocols and documents from the Illuminati. There is a direct relationship
between the Illuminati and Mizraim Masonry via Pasquales, who was a leading
Illuminatist (according to Bernard Lazare) and founder of Mizraim.
3. Internal evidence would seem to argue for a far earlier
existence of the Protocols than ca. 1900, or for the time period that Czarist
agents were allegedly in France 'forging' The Protocols. 'Anti-Semitic forgers'
would surely have made much of Herzl's Zionism had the Protocols been contrived
in the last part of the 19th or beginning of the 20th Centuries. Yet the
doctrine of the Protocols does NOT seem to be based on Herzl's Zionism or any
notion of a "return to the promised land" but rather refers to the dispersion of
Jewry as being its strength, the attitude of a certain non-Zionist section of
Jewry, including sections of Jewish banking (e.g. Schiff). Secondly, there is NO
mention of the Dreyfus Affair, which surely indicates again an earlier
existence. I find it inconceivable that anti-Semites in France contriving the
Protocols would not at least make some reference to Dreyfus given that it was
the cause celebre of both pro- and anti-Semites and convulsed France.
4. There is no evidence for the forging of the Protocols
found among the archives of the Okhrana or of those principals supposedly
involved.
5. The Protocols refer to Catholicism and the Jesuits being
major foes of the Learned Elders’ plans, along with the Czar. Orthodox,
traditionalists Czarists, whether Okhrana agents or Nilus, are not likely to
have made such comments. The passages on the Jesuits run parallel to those from
the Illuminati.
The Protocols are more likely to be a compilation of material
from the documents of Mizraim Masonry, the same source that influenced Joly via
Cremieux and others. At any rate, the explanations offered by those who dismiss
the Protocols as fake have turned out to be less than reliable, such as the
testimony of Princess Radziwill or the farcical trial of the Swiss publishers
during the 30s. The question as to origins at the least remains open, rather
than offhandedly dismissed.
K R Bolton
(9) May be counterproductive to bring in the "Protocols"
From: Bill
I agree that the existence of a Jewish world conspiracy can
be proved without any reference to the "Protocols". It can even be argued that
it is counterproductive to bring in the "Protocols" as it allows the Jews to
confuse the issue by bringing up the essentially irrelevant "forgery" charge.
However, I insist that, so far as they go, the "Protocols" are not inconsistent
with the thesis. They do, indeed, very closely parallel what has actually been
going on in the world for the last century. As to whether it is tactically wise
to use them as the basis of an argument, that is a different matter.
The "Protocols" have always scared the tribe. It could be
that they are merely scared about investigations of Jewish power generally, but
there is something specific about the "Protocols" which scares them even more.
When one considers the asonishing predictive validity of the document in so many
particulars, it is easy to see exactly why it scares them.
(10) Reply (Peter M.):
Jimmy Carter, Mearsheimer/Walt, and Norman Finkelstein did
not use the Protocols, but Lobby writers brought in the Protocols - comparing
their books to the Protocols - as a way of refuting these authors.
Therefore, there is no way to avoid the Protocols. One must
deal with it as I have done.
(11) Why the Czar didn't use the Protocols to discredit the
1905 Revolution
From: Kerry Bolton
In reply to the question as to why the Czar didn't use the
Protocols to discredit the 1905 Revolution; this can be answered on two counts:
1. Stolypin commissioned an enquiry to repudiate the
Protocols for the purpose of discrediting the Black Hundreds organisation.
2. Nilus was the target of Court intrigues centered around
Papus and Philippe de Lyon, heads of Mizraim Masonry from France; i.e. the same
form of Masonry of which Cremieux, Joly's mentor, had been head. Therefore, the
very repudiation once again involves Mizraim Masonry in association with the
Protocols. This suggests a convergence of evidence. That the Protocols were
among the final possessions of the Czarina would indicate that the Stolypin
enquiry of years earlier and other effors to discredit the Protocols did not
continue to hold weight.
(12) Protocols - "That Very Real Subterranean Force"
From: Bill
In musing over the infamous Protocols of Zion, that alleged
Czarist forgery, it strikes this writer that the real cause of concern is not so
much the content, although that largely describes the history of the twentieth
century, but rather the implication that Jews are capable of long term planning
over the centuries to achieve group objectives. That is the charge which the
Jews wish to avoid at all costs. To anyone who has read the historical record it
is obvious that the long conjectured 'Jewish international' is a provable
reality. There are many examples of it in the history of the last two hundred
years but one of the best examples is the revolutions of 1848 in Europe. In that
year virtually every European monarchy experienced simultaneous revolutionary
upheavals. Coincidence? Not a chance. In all countries Jews played a highly
visible and in many cases decisive role in the upheavals. After the revolutions
failed the Jews who had instigated these revolutions fled to England and
America. There they became prominent in establishing the newly founded
Republican Party in 1855. These European Jewish revolutionaries then became
active in promoting abolitionist sentiment before joining Abraham Lincoln's
Union Army as generals. After the war, these butchers in military uniform became
U.S. ambassadors and diplomats to many foreign countries.
Now, how does all this happen? Are we really to believe that
it is just coincidence that Jews stage a simultaneous series of revolutions in
all western European countries, that they flee across the sea and become the
founding fathers of a new political party in America, that they happen to become
generals in the Union army despite their total lack of military expertise, that
they just happen to become high diplomats and ambassadors of their adopted
country, the United States, after the war? This sort of thing does not 'just
happen'. It happens because of a very real, subterranean force emerging into the
open as its interests dictate and require.
None of this directly 'proves' the Protocols of Zion. But the
fact that this coordinated Jewish activity was taking place scant twenty or so
years before the publication of Maurice Joly's book and related predecessors is
certainly very indicative of a real Jewish power at work. The fact that the
alleged plans of this power also surfaced not too many years afterward is also
very indicative. Coincidence in politics is, more frequently than not, no mere
'coincidence'. The revolutionary outbreaks of 1848, the movement of the Jewish
felons to the New World and their coordinated activities there, and the
emergence of Joly's book and Jacob Venedy's book around 1860 and 1850
respectively, about the same time that the communist Jacoby brothers were
founding the first Communist Party in New York simultaneous with the founding of
the1848'r dominated Republican Party in the same year of 1855, adds up to
something very ominous. Those who wish for more details should consult the book
'Red Republicans', available as a 'print to order' volume, in either hardcover
or softcover.
(13) Reply (Peter M.):
The revolutionary movement spans centuries, from the French
Revolution to Karl Marx, to the Bolsheviks, to our own time. And thus our
investigation must delve into the historical continuity.
The Anarchist leader Bakunin wrote in his paper Federalism,
Socialism, Anti-Theologism:
"Babeuf's conspiracy failed; he was guillotined, together
with some of his old friends. But his idea of a socialist republic did not die
with him. It was picked up by his friend Buonarroti, the arch-conspirator of the
century, who transmitted it as a sacred trust to future generations".
According to James Billington, in his book Fire In the Minds
of Men: Origins of the Revolutionary Faith, Buonarroti was a member of the
Illuminati. Billington's big book is an account of the secret societies behind
revolutions.
The back of the dust jacket of this book reads:
{quote} JAMES H. BILLINGTON has been, since 1973, director of
the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars ... he received his
doctorate as a Rhodes Scholar at Oxford ...{endquote}
Billington later became Librarian of Congress.
There's no mention in the book of the secret society of Cecil
Rhodes for furthering the British Empire, which endows the Rhodes Scholarships
to this day:
http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/rhodes-scholars.html.
And despite its size (677 pages, weighing 1.1 kgs),
Billington's book manages to omit any Jewish connection to Revolutions.
That Jewish connection is, however, supplied by two
impeccable Jewish sources, Benjamin Disraeli and J. L. Talmon.
Benjamin Disraeli wrote in his "novel" Coningsby, in 1844
(5th edition, published by Peter Davies, London, 1927):
'that mighty revolution which is at this moment preparing in
Germany, and which will be, in fact, a second and greater Reformation, and of
which so little is as yet known in England, is entirely developing under the
auspices of Jews, who almost monopolise the professorial chairs of Germany. ...
' (p. 264).
Disraeli, writing in 1844, is referring (four years in
advance) to the revolution of 1848, launched shortly after the appearance of The
Communist Manifesto.
In 1852 Disraeli wrote in Lord George Bentinck: A Political
Biography (Archibald, Constable & Co. Ltd., London 1905):
{p. 324} An insurrection takes place against tradition and
aristocracy, against religion and property. Destruction of the Semitic
principle, extirpation of the Jewish religion, whether in the mosaic or in the
christian form, the natural equality of man and the abrogation of property, are
proclaimed by the secret societies who form provisional governments, and men of
Jewish race are found at the head of every one of them. The people of God
co-operate with atheists; the most skilful accumulators of property ally
themselves with communists; the peculiar and chosen race touch the hand of all
the scum and low castes of Europe! And all this because they wish to destroy
that ungrateful Christendom which owes to them even its name, and whose tyranny
they can no longer endure.
When the secret societies, in February 1848, surprised
Europe, they were themselves surprised by the unexpected opportunity, and so
little capable were they of seizing the occasion, that had it not been for the
Jews, who of late years unfortunately have been connecting themselves with these
unhallowed associations, imbecile as were the governments the uncalled-for
outbreak would not have ravaged Europe. But the fiery energy and the teeming
resources of the children of Israel maintained for a long time the unnecessary
and useless struggle. If the reader throws over the provisional governments of
Germany, and Italy, and even of France, formed at that period, he will recognise
everywhere the Jewish element. {endquote}
Disraeli's message is: if you don't want Communism, support
Zionism. The West used this strategy in the Cold War.
More from Disraeli at
http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/disraeli.html.
J. L. Talmon wrote two studies of the revolutionary
tradition. The first, The Origins of Totalitarian Democracy, "writes out" any
mention of Jewish involvement.
The second, Israel Among the Nations, "writes it back in":
{p. 1} It has for a long time been almost an axiom that The
Revolution was the ally, some were even wont to say saviour of the Jews, and
that the Jews were the natural standard-bearers of the revolution. ... Those who
should be most interested, revolutionaries of Jewish extraction, or
revolutionaries in general, tend to deny the very legitimacy of the
juxtaposition, 'Jews and revolution'. It is, they argue, men, classes, peoples
who rise in revolt against oppression, that many revolutionaries have {p. 2}
been of Jewish ancestry is quite irrelevant and the very desire to see it as
relevant arises out of a sinister intention to discredit the cause of revolution
itself ... Then there are those Jews who are unable to ignore the intimate
relation between Jews and revolution, but wish they had never heard of it. ...
{p. 69} Three years later the Tsar and all his family were helpless prisoners
guarded by a Jew and a few Latvian assistants. ... - 'in the fact that the chief
executioner of Tsar Nicholas II and his family in the Ekaterinburg cellar was a
Jew', Jacob Yurovsky.
{p. 21} The great wave of revolutions in 1848, spreading with
lightning speed from capital to capital, almost from town to town across Europe,
was greeted by very many Jews as proof that all nations were about to enter into
a revolutionary world association. {i.e. World Government, i.e. the messianic
age}
Not only the democratic and Socialist aspirations, but even
the national liberation movements bore at least in the early phase a distinctly
universalist character. So great was the enthusiasm of the Jews that they were
prepared to overlook the anti-Jewish excesses ... and even to proclaim that the
victory of universal brotherhood had put 'an end to any distinct Jewish
history', 'for liberty, like love, is cosmopolitan, wandering from people to
people'.
There was hardly a revolution - that year of revolutions - in
which Jews were not prominent or at least very active.
{endquote} More of Talmon at
http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/talmon.html.
Engels, in describing the history of the Communist movement,
candidly admits the role of secret societies, unlike some later historians who
pretend that all those uprisings happened purely spontaneously. Engels, History
of the Communist League, in Lewis D. Feuer (ed), Marx & Engels: Basic Writings
on Politics & Philosophy, 1959, pp. 459-470.
In the same article he states that the revolutionary movement
had been underground (conspiratorial) until 1847, when the first Congress of the
League of the Just was held. At this Congress the league was reorganised and
renamed the "Communist League", and, coming out of its underground mode, "barred
all hankering after conspiracy, which requires dictatorship".
Acknowledgement of the connection to Weishaupt is implied:
"Whatever remained of the old mystical names dating back to the conspiratorial
period was now abolished".
Such names (Spartacus, Philo, Gracchus etc.) had been a
feature of Weishaupt's underground organisation, the Illuminati; although Lenin,
Trotsky, Stalin etc. were "new names" in the same style.
The granting of such new names upon conversion to a new faith
is reminiscent of the way Catholic monks and nuns, on admission to the order,
gave up their old name and used a new, religious, one, that of a saint.
Weishaupt, of course, would have been familiar with this.
In 1848 the Communist League commissioned Marx and Engels to
write the Manifesto.
The above is from The Protocols of Zion Toolkit, Part 2:
http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/toolkit2.html
However, Karl Marx also wrote about a Jewish conspiracy in
the Finance system. This must be seen, in part, as an attack on those Jews who
refused to join or back the Communist movement; in today’s terms, the Zionists.
The following is from The Karl Marx Library, Volume 5, On
Religion (arranged and edited, with an introd. and new translations, by Saul K.
Padover McGraw-Hill Book Company New York 1972):
{p. 219} The Jewish Bankers of Europe*
TAKE Austria, for instance - a country which suffers from
chronic scarcity of cash. What is she doing at this moment? She proposes to
raise money by negotiating the mortgage bonds of the landowners of the Austrian
dominions. But how is such an operation possible?
Through the Jewish houses, who, shut out from all more
honorable branches of business, have acquired in this an inevitable degree of
aptitude. There are in Vienna the Rothschilds, and Arnsteins, and Eskeles, and
the Jew-Greek house of Seria, for whom the management of a loan of $100,000,000
is a matter of most easy accomplishment. The way they start at the loan is to
get all their correspondents to canvass their business constituencies, and with
the allurements of a particular commission, their correspondents of course do
their best to ensnare their customers.
The broad facts we have pointed out have naturally produced
all over Europe, especially in its northern, western, and central portions where
the indolence which prevails in the southern part (as Italy, Spain, and
Portugal) is modified by dimate, all manner and kinds of capitalists,
speculators, and jobbers, who have no other business beyond that of dealing in
money. Now there are posted in every point of Europe Jewish agents who represent
this business and who are the correspondents of other leading Jews. It must here
be borne in mind that for one big fish, like Rothschild, there are thousands of
minnows. ...
* From "The Loanmongers of Europe," published in the New York
Daily Tribune, November 22, 1855.
{endquote} More at
http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/leftprot.html
The lesson is that there are TWO Jewish conspiratorial
movements - Communism and Zionism - sometimes at odds, sometimes aligned. Each
appeals to Jews - and non-Jews - to join it against the other. And there are
Jews who join neither.
This mailing list includes people from both the Far Left and
the Far Right. You might ask, how is this possible? But, to me, it is the only
way I can operate. Truth does not reside in only one camp. Each camp shines a
torch on its’ opponents’ sins, but hides the skeletons in its own closet. By
carefully balancing the two extremes, I remain independent of both.
(14) Protocols & C.H. Douglas’s Social Credit theory of money
From: Iskandar
Do you think that the financial techniques expounded in the
protocols could have been an inspiration to C.H. Douglas in developing his
Social Credit philosophy?
So then, was state creation of fiat money practiced in the
USSR during either Lenin's time or Stalin's time or post-Stalin?
Is 'social credit' or creation of fiat money by the state
still a real solution, a kind of alternative to either third-way high taxation
or neo-classical liberal 'new rightism'?
The problem of course is whose agenda will control 'the
state'?
Sincere, Iskandar. Wellington, NZ.
(15) Reply (Peter M.):
I expect that Douglas knew the Protocols. It could have
influenced his theory of money.
Yes, the USSR created it own fiat money, unbacked by gold.
(16) A more subtle response from Birdman, to my more subtle
argument
You have been making a subtle argument for the validity of
the Protocols which I had not picked up on till now. That argument may be stated
as follows:
>>Because the Protocols have predicted important world
events that no one else has predicted, it cannot be a 'forgery' or 'plagiarism'.
Instead, no matter what earlier documents it seems related to, the knowledge
implicit in its predictions means that it was written by someone who possessed
intimate knowledge of the evil acts and plans of very powerful men which were
designed to do the things that were correctly predicted.<<
Now that is an interesting argument. And if indeed the
Protocols had been a good predictor of world events, then it might carry some
weight in my mind. Obviously, Henry Ford thought that it was a good predictor.
BUT.....what has it predicted that no one else has foreseen? I have not read
much of the Protocols, but I want to see the predictions. My scepticism of the
predictions, indeed, is enhanced by a passage from one of your letters. You said
the following:
[Begin] i. A major political event occurs in world history,
inaugurating a regime (the USSR) aiming to engulf the world, carried out by
organised Jews as documented by Bertrand Russell, and by Robert Wilton and
others. Even though some Jews opposed the new regime, that does not undo the
fact that it was created by Jews.
ii. The Jewish role is hidden, denied, kept invisible. Many
of the Jewish participants came from the West - therefore, some Western Jewish
groups knew of the Jewish role, yet kept it hidden from non-Jews (e.g. in the
public media, partly owned by Jews). There have also been dissident Jewish
groups which tried to warn of what was happening.
iii. Non-Jewish supporters of the Socialist movement are led
to believe that the new regime is benevolent, and the inauguration of a utopia.
iv. In fact it is a despotic dystopia for the very people
among whom it is carried out. Non-Jewish Socialists are deceived and
manipulated.
Now this pattern of events was predicted in The Protocols of
Zion; yet no other type of literature, e.g. the Socialist literature preceding
the event, correctly predicted this conjunction of events. [End]
My scepticism here is due to two things, one small and one
large. The small thing is your allegation of 'hiddenness': In fact, the edition
of the Jewish Encyclopedia put out in the 1920s BRAGGED ABOUT THE ROLE OF JEWS
IN THE RUSSIAN REVOLUTION. This is not exactly 'hidden', tho one could argue
that it would be read only by Jews, hence was hidden from the stupid goys.
HOWEVER, later editions eliminated the bragging, so this makes it look like the
coverup is, after all, in consideration of the goys.
Now the large thing which makes me skeptical is that the
predictions you cite don't really predict anything much. Specifically, (i) All
regimes want to dominate the world; (ii) the Jews have always kept their role
hidden for fear of causing resentment; (iii) all regimes paint themselves as
benevolent; (iv) regimes often are despotic from day 1.
Or in short, if your paragraphs (i) thru i(v) is a
'prediction' that you wish the Protocols to be judged by, then clearly the
Protocols is worthless.
In the same letter you cite two other predictions:
[Begin] The Protocols predicts that, after a world war, there
will be an attempt to form a world government, secretly orchestrated by Jewish
financiers.
This happened at the Treaty of Versailles:
http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/wells-lenin-league.html
The Protocols also predicted a despotic government in the
guise of socialism, once again secretly Jewish. This happened when Lenin &
Trotsky set up the USSR:
http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/lenin-trotsky.html [End]
And while the matter can be debated, I do not regard these
predictions to be of much worth, either. I mean, socialism had been around since
before the time of Marx, who wrote the Communist Manifesto in 1848, and
communist and socialist ideas were ensconced in the public consciousness with
not only Marx's activities, but the attempts to form socialist communities such
as Brook Farm, which was involved with many American intellectuals such as
Nathaniel Hawthorne, Henry Thoreau, Margaret Fuller and Bronson Alcott; Nashoba
(Frances Wright); the workers' commune of Robert Owen; and the Phalanx
communities based on the ideas of Charles Fourier. Thus 'predicting' a socialist
dictatorship has about the same ring as predicting dinner. As to 'predicting'
attempts at world government, that can be dated back to Alexander, who was
supposed to have broken down in tears on the shores of Alexandria because he had
no more worlds to conquer; or perhaps to Rome, which governed the known world
for 1000 years (the first 'thousand-year Reich'). So with such ancient ideas as
'predictions', which had no doubt been predicted a thousand times before, I
really don't think there is any need to be much impressed.
But like I say, 'Show me the predictions/No predictions, no
Protocols', echoing Robert Faurisson, 'Show me the holes/No holes, no
Holocaust'. And since the argument from predictions is an inductive rather than
a deductive argument, your argument is strengthened the more predictions you can
demonstrate that turned out to be true.
Just make sure they predict something a little more
substantial than that the sun rises in the morning.
-Birdman
(17) Reply (Peter M.):
It is not that I have made a new argument; rather, you have
finally begun to read some of what I wrote, just when I thought this discussion
was over.
You say I argue that
> Because the Protocols have predicted important world
events that no one else has predicted, it cannot be a 'forgery' or 'plagiarism'.
That’s not quite what I say. I admit that it COULD be a
'forgery' or 'plagiarism'; I do not assert categorically that it’s not. But I
believe, probabilistically, that it’s not.
And I’m quite happy to leave the issue open. You can’t deny
that I’ve given you free rein to express your scepticism; for my part, I have no
more to add to what I’ve already said.
I read a comment by another writer, “Disagreements generate
more than heat - they generate light too”. That’s why I welcome debate. Your
challenge prompted me to reformulate my response, and I think my composition
this time is the best summary I have done.
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